Christians and other believers wanted

I've been reading a blog called A Time To Rend (http://atimetorend.wordpress.com/) for quite some time now. It was created and is maintained by an ex-Christian who is chronicling his journey through life and his many observations. Recently his wife began a blog called A Time To Sew (http://atimetosew.wordpress.com/), she is still a Christian and will be blogging about their life together and life in general. There was a post on A Time To Rend about his wife's blog, but mainly atheists, ex-Christians, and skeptics read there so I wanted to try and spread the word so that she could get some readers with other viewpoints as well. Below is an excerpt from her introductory post on A Time To Rend.

"To all of you who are faithful (or sporadic) readers of my husband’s blog, I write this post to thank you and to introduce myself. Thank you for your comments, your listening “ears”, and your support of my husband through what we would both consider a “messed up year.” ATTR was up and running some three or four months before I knew about it. Even then, my husband was reticent to share his posts with me. Ouch! That was hard for a wife to take. I remember saying, “I thought we were friends.” Yet, some things were too hard to work through at the time. Thanks for being there for him when I couldn’t."

Check it out and give this couple some love! :-)

Would Jesus wash Osama bin Laden's feet?

John 13:1-17 (KJV)

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

One of the things that has struck me for years regarding the canonized New Testament's portrayal of Jesus is his servant nature. I can just imagine the disciples reactions as this one who they revered knelt and performed what could be seen as such a menial task.

Matthew 5:43-44

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

As I listen to the talk in this country I hear many Christians spouting hatred, even against other Christians, some of the liberals hate the conservatives, some of the conservatives hate the liberals. Looking at the verses above, shouldn't they be praying for and serving each other instead of spewing vitriol?

Would Jesus wash Osama bin Laden's feet? Would Jesus wash President Obama's feet? What about George W. Bush, also portrayed in the painting above?

The picture above is a few years old, it portrays Jesus washing the feet of several world leaders of the time, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, former English Prime Minister Tony Blair, former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, US president George W Bush, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and Jiang Zemin, former president of China.

As I understand it, the image was part of a series of posters promoting a conference presented by the Justinen Creative Group. I discovered it on a friend's blog, Mosaic Mercy, and it inspired this post.

Thoughts?

Wider template

I installed a wider template as some of the comment threads were getting too narrow. This should help some.

Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

I've been promising a post for a while now. I get ideas for posts and then, after thinking through them, usually end up not posting them. So much of what I want to say is said in other places, in better ways. Today's post fought through the usual process and became a real post.

While I enjoy discussions of various forms of theology and other forms of spirituality, I keep running into the black and white specter of dogma.

Main Entry: dog·ma
Pronunciation: \ˈdȯg-mə, ˈdäg-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta \-mə-tə\
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem — more at decent
Date: 1638

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Just when things start to get interesting someone says "That's not scriptural", "God isn't like that", or "That's un-(Insert favorite religion here)". Dogma, in the case of religion, spirituality and many world views in general, is built upon this idea that there is a right way and a wrong way to believe and practice said belief. Of course this can really apply to any world view, I'm sure some hold the belief that there is even a right and wrong way to be an atheist.

One of the blogs I read is penned by the head pastor at the church I used to attend. He is someone who I have great respect for, because he truly does live his faith rather than shove it in everyone's face. One of his recent posts was a review of Dan Brown's latest book, The Lost Symbol. The final paragraph of the review is what sparked the idea for the post you are reading.

I know that many people will read The Lost Symbol. I would strongly remind you that it is a work of FICTION. And, that it is a proponent of a heresy and false belief system that has been around for nearly two millenia.

My comment was as follows:

If Gnosticism had won, and become the popular belief, everyone would be calling what we think of today as Christianity the heretical and false belief system.

Heresy and a false belief system, not unlike what Judaism would consider Christianity, or Christianity considers Mormonism, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses and on and on. Can anyone prove that Christianity or any other religion is true? Of course not, if they were provable there would be no need for faith. Just because something is written in a holy book or came to you in a dream or while you were praying or worshiping or sitting in the woods doesn't make it true. Of course non-believers existing doesn't make these things untrue either.

I want to have these discussions, I really do. I find them fascinating and I do think it's possible there is something behind this whole God thing, but understand that when I say God I don't necessarily mean your idea of God, or your idea of God, or your idea of God. I start to lose enthusiasm as soon as a sentence begins with the phrase "God is...". I understand that for some people it's implied that they are saying "To me, God is..." or "Maybe God is...", but the fact of the matter is none of us knows with certainty anything about God or gods. We only know what we have experienced and interpreted and can listen to the experiences of others as they have interpreted them. On the day you die and go to meet your maker or go...nowhere, or meet Allah, or Vishnu, or Zeus, then you will know if heresy or blasphemy are real things, or you won't care. Until that day, remember that you could be just as wrong as you may think I am, regardless of all your experiences as you perceive them, and all your time spent studying holy scripture and spiritual phenomena. I promise to try to be open to what you believe, and I would be much encouraged if you would do the same for me and for others. Remember, the one you call heretical could just as easily think the same of you, and either could be right.

Peace.

P.s. This post is not directed at anyone person, not even Pastor Greg, his post was just the catalyst that inspired me to write this post that had been brewing for a while

Domain Name

I've decided the domain name atheistsandchristians.com is not important. I'm going to let it lapse in a few days. This site will still be available and active at http://atheists-and-christians.blogspot.com/. I have an actual new post coming soon, believe it or not. ;-)

If you link to this site please link to http://atheists-and-christians.blogspot.com/ from now on.

Thanks!

Dan Silverman update

Some of you may recall my November 18th, 2008 post The Plight of Dan Silverman.

Yesterday he was sentenced to 18 months in prison.

Va. Pastor Sentenced to 18 Months on Sex Charge

I've said all along that I have no idea if Dan is innocent, but during the short time I interacted with him he conducted himself with kindness and grace, only showing concern for his family and for his accuser. The comments left on his now defunct blog where a mixed bag, some were from loving Christians who knew and supported Dan, others were from hateful Christians who went on to no end about what a deceiver he was and how there was no hope for his soul as he was an apostate. I should also mention that many ex-Christians and atheists chimed in supportively.

The comments by those who knew him, both positive and negative, did nothing but re-enforce my leaning towards his innocence, but not directly knowing the man I can not be certain either way.

My wish is only that healing will follow for all the parties involved.

A note on comments: I considered not allowing them on this post, but decided that I would. I will, however, delete any comments I deem inappropriate. This includes hearsay. I have no more reason to believe you are telling the truth than anyone else.

No comments identifying the juvenile complainant will be posted.

I think we should stop teaching chemistry too.

I just read this post (We're Back: On Erhman, CNN and the Middle East) at www.PrimeTimeJesus.com. Apparently Bart Ehrman is emboldening terrorists. It reminds me of how the Bush administration accused those of us who were opposed to the war in Iraq of emboldening terrorists. Whether or not one agrees with Ehrman's work, to suggest that he should stop publishing his studies because some extremists are being encouraged is ridiculous. Extremists use the Bible too, should we stop publishing it?

An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

So, let me first tell you that until today I had a bumper sticker on my car that read "If Religious Groups Want To Get Into Politics, They Should Pay Taxes". Ironically, I decided today, while in BJ's, that I no longer wanted to express myself through bumper stickers since they seldom initiate any real dialogue.

As I returned to my car, put my groceries in, and began to remove my two bumper stickers, an angry pastor and his wife approached me. He angrily asked me why I displayed that bumper sticker and I told him it was because I don't like religious organizations getting into politics and trying to legislate their own brand of morality and that it was illegal for churches to endorse politicians and keep their tax exempt status. His wife chimed in with something like "If you were down on your luck, the church would be the first one to give you water." They both then proceeded to tell me how churches were the first to respond to Katrina and all the good churches do. I agreed that churches did a lot of good. They just couldn't understand that I didn't have a problem with churches. It's like they thought my bumper sticker said "Tax churches" because the next thing they talked about was how if churches were taxed then they couldn't do all the good they do now. My response was "But if churches were taxed and didn't have as much money, God would provide right?" They said yes he would.

They said something about how I would feel differently if I knew the Bible, at which point I explained that I had been a Christian for 20 years. He asked why I wasn't now and I briefly explained that in seeking a fuller relationship with God he gradually became less real to me. His wife asked me if I had a Bible and a Strong's concordance and I said yes. She then asked me to look up the word "love" in the concordance and read all the verses about love, and then she said something about having and older edition Webster's dictionary to look stuff up in. I was tempted to explain to her that I knew the new testament was written in Greek and that the Greeks had four words for love, etc. etc., but decided not to as I really wasn't interested.

We ended with him asking what my first name was so he could pray for me; I've always wondered why we needed names to pray for people. I thanked him, told them it was nice to meet them, and was on my way.

Why do some believers seem to be so challenged and almost intimidated by those who used to share their faith?

You are all wrong, fortunately, I'm right.

Today's post, the first in quite a while, is about schoolyard bullies who have grown up and become TV or radio personalities. You know the ones I'm talking about, the ones who see the world in black and white, and only their side is the good side. The ones who don't actually deal with real issues, but instead toss around labels that do nothing, but make extremists be more extreme, polarizing this great nation of ours. I become nearly physically ill when I hear some of these disgusting hypocrites speak. During the last administration those of us who were less than thrilled with President Bush were un-American and were told we hated America, now these same people are criticizing our current president, hell it's not even valid criticism, it's just bullying, but they consider themselves patriots and still say the rest of us are un-American.

Why do people listen to these mental midgets?

A Year Without God

February 29th, 2008 was the day I sent out my letter to my friends and family declaring my new found lack of belief. Of course, there is no 29th this year, so March 1st will have to do. ;-)

It has been one of the most interesting years of my life. I've had regular theological discussions for most of my adult life, but never with such variety, and certainly never from this side of the fence.

One of the things I've tried to do is not make assumptions about what people believe. The labels we give ourselves and each other are so very inadequate at expressing what we really believe. There is so much variety of belief, even within each of the nearly infinite denominations within Christianity, that pigeonholing is not advisable. It's easy to label someone a fundy or a new ager and essentially write them off. It's much more interesting, challenging, and sometimes exhausting to try to dig deeper and see what they really believe and why.

I have constantly run into the certainty brick wall. We are all certain of many things, but I refuse to be certain about the invisible. The problem with many of the God arguments that are made, is that they depend on experiences. I'm glad that you are happy and that you've had experiences you identify as God, but that does not mean I will have those same experiences or even if I do, choose to identify them as God. I try to be kind, but there are times where something appears so ludicrous to me that I laugh. Really, none of us is perfect, we could all be wrong.

It's been a good year, no disasters have befallen me, no local floods or fires, God hasn't tried to smite me yet. Of course the year hasn't been perfect, I experienced the same sorts of events that happened when I was a professing Christian. Work related stress from time to time, family medical issues, etc, etc. Then again, a big book I once read said something like "The rain falls on the wicked and the just.".

Let's see how the next year goes.

This was crossposted at atheistsandchristians.com and merelyadequate.net

How do you, or did you experience God?

Today's question is "How do you, or did you experience God?"

In my discussions with theists, I've been accused of false conversion many times. I was essentially doing it wrong, and they, of course, could tell me the correct way. However, other theists have been much more kind and understanding and realize that I must experience God in my own way...if a god exists.

I will now attempt to explain the ways in which I felt I was experiencing God.

The little things: Thoughts, feelings, bits of scripture popping into my head or jumping off the page at me.

The big things: Feelings of purpose, belonging, being loved, cared for, protected, and guided. Feeling God move at gatherings, especially during worship. Being given the right things to say in the right time. Prayer, nearly without ceasing. Blessing others with prayer, both one on one and during small group gatherings.

Even though I never felt God spoke to me in direct words, I felt that he was in constant communication through thoughts and feelings. I did my best to always keep him in my thoughts. I had bibles everywhere and made special CDs of music and scripture. I found one the other day. I called them Songs That Keep Me Strong, and had several consisting of quite a few songs.

Please share with me how you experience or experienced God. Please do not try to use this as an opportunity to tell me what you feel I did wrong.

Poets, priests, and politicians.

I've been reading a lot of different arguments on various Christian web sites, arguments in favor of Christianity or against atheism. The conclusion I've come to is that while these arguments are sometimes fascinating and incredibly complex, they are about as useful as tits on a bull. Please, don't think me unkind, but you can argue till you are blue in the face, but if I don't have a real experience with your brand of spirituality then your arguments are merely interesting at best.

When I was a Christian I delved into the realm of apologetics quite a bit. One of my favorite verses was:

2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (New International Version)

4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Now I see such actions as futile and masturbatory, preaching to the choir quite literally.

I guess the point of this post is to let you know not to get all upset when atheists don't find your arguments compelling or don't decide to delve deeper into your beliefs. I know you feel your arguments are compelling and that everyone should find them convincing, but not everyone will, not even all of your fellow theists.

The title of this post came from here.