Atheists And Christians Community Blog

I read a great quote today

2010-08-05T21:59:00.005-04:00

"What I noticed at grace-Calvary is the same thing I notice whenever people aim to solve their conflicts with one another by turning to the Bible: defending dried ink marks on the page becomes more vital than defending the neighbor. As a general rule, I would say that human beings never behave more badly toward one another than when they believe they are protecting God. In the words of Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mohandas, 'People of the Book risk putting the book above the people.'" --Barbara Brown Taylor, "Leaving church: A Memoir of Faith"

I've watched people from all walks of life get pretty nasty when they defend their core beliefs or at at least the foundation of the box they've built for themselves to live in and view the world from. Atheists, Christians, XBOX fans, Playstation fans, Mac fans, Windows fans, it goes on and on. Most people, myself included, have a great deal of certainty that what they see, feel, and believe are all true things. For years I was certain that conservative Evangelical Christianity was the truth, that my theology, which was shared by many, was correct. After all, the Holy Spirit guided us into our belief, just as he guided those who penned the Holy Word of God and ensured that those 66 books would be collected together as we know them today, and that the false texts would be cast out.

After I lost my faith: yes, I know, I was never a true Christian, I was a false convert, I was pretending to be a Christian, but really living a life of sin, I was pretending to be a Christian to subvert the true message of Christ, I was a Sunday only Christian, etc., etc. all things I've been accused of since losing my faith; the one thing that came out of it all is that certainty can vanish in an instant, well usually not an instant, but it can seem so when it comes. My deconversion was a long drawn out process which involved major prayer and study of the Bible, but when the final moment came it was almost like a switch had been flipped.

Anyway, now I try to respect everyone's viewpoints and sometimes things can sound pretty crazy, but I know what I used to believe, and I know I could be completely wrong about what I believe now too. Is conservative Evangelical Christianity correct? I don't know. Liberal Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam? I really have no idea, they certainly couldn't all be 100% literally correct simultaneously, but parts of all of them could be true. What I do know is that we are all human beings struggling through each day on this planet and we have more in common than not. As Sting said some 20 years ago "We share the same biology, regardless of ideology.", but we sure can forget that rather easily.

I've actually stopped reading a few of the atheist blogs I used to read because they are so anti-religion. Sure, we all know about poison aspects of religion, but for the most part the positive wins out. I see people living wonderful, productive, vibrant lives, that include a full faith life as well, and I see no reason that they should not. Just as I see non-believers also living wonderful, productive, vibrant lives as well.

If my certainty in any belief becomes more important than my fellow humans then I'm guessing I'm doing something wrong...but I'm not certain. ;-)

The post and the quote can be found here: Which Comes First: The Book or the People?

Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, Iranian Mother, could be put to death at any moment

2010-07-21T20:37:00.000-04:00

: Image by Robert Reed Daly via Flick

Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, if you haven't heard of her, is the Iranian mother who could possibly be put to death soon. The charge is adultery, though after much public outcry they claim she is also being punished for her alleged part in her late husband's murder. There is a petition to be signed at the first site below and both are good for keeping up with the latest info.
http://freesakineh.org/

http://iransolidarity.blogspot.com/

Universum

2010-04-29T16:22:00.002-04:00

: Image by cesarharada.com via Flickr

From Wikipedia:

This is a modification of the Flammarion Woodcut is an enigmatic woodcut by an unknown artist. It is referred to as the Flammarion Woodcut because its first documented appearance is in page 163 of Camille Flammarion's L'atmosphère: météorologie populaire (Paris, 1888), a work on meteorology for a general audience. The woodcut depicts a man peering through the Earth's atmosphere as if it were a curtain to look at the inner workings of the universe.

I first saw this work when I read Brian's post entitled Panentheism. Then, today Joe used it in his post today entitled Omniscience and Omnipresence: is God's Nature Contradictory?. Finally, i saw it also today in GodlessGrrl's post entitled Motivations of an Apostate: Truth vs. Reality.

When I first saw the picture I commented that I liked it and then tried to find a print of it, but all I can find is the Wikipedia image, there seem to be no larger reproductions. I've decided that the picture must be following me though since it keeps popping up. ;-)

Gorgeous video! My Spirituality as an Atheist

2010-04-23T15:31:00.001-04:00

Found via Luke @ http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=7322

Life at Beaver Lake

2010-02-15T09:12:00.004-05:00

I haven't posted in a while, but I wanted to share a new blog with all of you.

My cousin Wendy and her husband Bob live in, what I always say is, a post card in Montana. They've started a new blog together combining Bob's photography and Wendy's words, intertwining and inspiring each other. Be careful or you may want to run off and live in the wild too!

Life at Beaver Lake

Christians and other believers wanted

2009-12-29T10:04:00.002-05:00

I've been reading a blog called A Time To Rend (http://atimetorend.wordpress.com/) for quite some time now. It was created and is maintained by an ex-Christian who is chronicling his journey through life and his many observations. Recently his wife began a blog called A Time To Sew (http://atimetosew.wordpress.com/), she is still a Christian and will be blogging about their life together and life in general. There was a post on A Time To Rend about his wife's blog, but mainly atheists, ex-Christians, and skeptics read there so I wanted to try and spread the word so that she could get some readers with other viewpoints as well. Below is an excerpt from her introductory post on A Time To Rend.

"To all of you who are faithful (or sporadic) readers of my husband’s blog, I write this post to thank you and to introduce myself. Thank you for your comments, your listening “ears”, and your support of my husband through what we would both consider a “messed up year.” ATTR was up and running some three or four months before I knew about it. Even then, my husband was reticent to share his posts with me. Ouch! That was hard for a wife to take. I remember saying, “I thought we were friends.” Yet, some things were too hard to work through at the time. Thanks for being there for him when I couldn’t."

Check it out and give this couple some love! :-)

Would Jesus wash Osama bin Laden's feet?

2009-12-02T09:01:00.003-05:00

John 13:1-17 (KJV)

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

One of the things that has struck me for years regarding the canonized New Testament's portrayal of Jesus is his servant nature. I can just imagine the disciples reactions as this one who they revered knelt and performed what could be seen as such a menial task.

Matthew 5:43-44

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

As I listen to the talk in this country I hear many Christians spouting hatred, even against other Christians, some of the liberals hate the conservatives, some of the conservatives hate the liberals. Looking at the verses above, shouldn't they be praying for and serving each other instead of spewing vitriol?

Would Jesus wash Osama bin Laden's feet? Would Jesus wash President Obama's feet? What about George W. Bush, also portrayed in the painting above?

The picture above is a few years old, it portrays Jesus washing the feet of several world leaders of the time, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, former English Prime Minister Tony Blair, former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, US president George W Bush, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and Jiang Zemin, former president of China.

As I understand it, the image was part of a series of posters promoting a conference presented by the Justinen Creative Group. I discovered it on a friend's blog, Mosaic Mercy, and it inspired this post.

Thoughts?

Wider template

2009-10-12T12:41:00.001-04:00

I installed a wider template as some of the comment threads were getting too narrow. This should help some.

Of Heresy, Blasphemy, and the Price of Tea in China

2009-10-11T18:05:00.004-04:00

I've been promising a post for a while now. I get ideas for posts and then, after thinking through them, usually end up not posting them. So much of what I want to say is said in other places, in better ways. Today's post fought through the usual process and became a real post.

While I enjoy discussions of various forms of theology and other forms of spirituality, I keep running into the black and white specter of dogma.

Main Entry: dog·ma
Pronunciation: \ˈdȯg-mə, ˈdäg-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta \-mə-tə\
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem — more at decent
Date: 1638

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Just when things start to get interesting someone says "That's not scriptural", "God isn't like that", or "That's un-(Insert favorite religion here)". Dogma, in the case of religion, spirituality and many world views in general, is built upon this idea that there is a right way and a wrong way to believe and practice said belief. Of course this can really apply to any world view, I'm sure some hold the belief that there is even a right and wrong way to be an atheist.

One of the blogs I read is penned by the head pastor at the church I used to attend. He is someone who I have great respect for, because he truly does live his faith rather than shove it in everyone's face. One of his recent posts was a review of Dan Brown's latest book, The Lost Symbol. The final paragraph of the review is what sparked the idea for the post you are reading.

I know that many people will read The Lost Symbol. I would strongly remind you that it is a work of FICTION. And, that it is a proponent of a heresy and false belief system that has been around for nearly two millenia.

My comment was as follows:

If Gnosticism had won, and become the popular belief, everyone would be calling what we think of today as Christianity the heretical and false belief system.

Heresy and a false belief system, not unlike what Judaism would consider Christianity, or Christianity considers Mormonism, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses and on and on. Can anyone prove that Christianity or any other religion is true? Of course not, if they were provable there would be no need for faith. Just because something is written in a holy book or came to you in a dream or while you were praying or worshiping or sitting in the woods doesn't make it true. Of course non-believers existing doesn't make these things untrue either.

I want to have these discussions, I really do. I find them fascinating and I do think it's possible there is something behind this whole God thing, but understand that when I say God I don't necessarily mean your idea of God, or your idea of God, or your idea of God. I start to lose enthusiasm as soon as a sentence begins with the phrase "God is...". I understand that for some people it's implied that they are saying "To me, God is..." or "Maybe God is...", but the fact of the matter is none of us knows with certainty anything about God or gods. We only know what we have experienced and interpreted and can listen to the experiences of others as they have interpreted them. On the day you die and go to meet your maker or go...nowhere, or meet Allah, or Vishnu, or Zeus, then you will know if heresy or blasphemy are real things, or you won't care. Until that day, remember that you could be just as wrong as you may think I am, regardless of all your experiences as you perceive them, and all your time spent studying holy scripture and spiritual phenomena. I promise to try to be open to what you believe, and I would be much encouraged if you would do the same for me and for others. Remember, the one you call heretical could just as easily think the same of you, and either could be right.

Peace.

P.s. This post is not directed at anyone person, not even Pastor Greg, his post was just the catalyst that inspired me to write this post that had been brewing for a while

Domain Name

2009-10-04T00:12:00.003-04:00

I've decided the domain name atheistsandchristians.com is not important. I'm going to let it lapse in a few days. This site will still be available and active at http://atheists-and-christians.blogspot.com/. I have an actual new post coming soon, believe it or not. ;-)

If you link to this site please link to http://atheists-and-christians.blogspot.com/ from now on.

Thanks!

Dan Silverman update

2009-07-08T09:50:00.008-04:00

Some of you may recall my November 18th, 2008 post The Plight of Dan Silverman.

Yesterday he was sentenced to 18 months in prison.

Va. Pastor Sentenced to 18 Months on Sex Charge

I've said all along that I have no idea if Dan is innocent, but during the short time I interacted with him he conducted himself with kindness and grace, only showing concern for his family and for his accuser. The comments left on his now defunct blog where a mixed bag, some were from loving Christians who knew and supported Dan, others were from hateful Christians who went on to no end about what a deceiver he was and how there was no hope for his soul as he was an apostate. I should also mention that many ex-Christians and atheists chimed in supportively.

The comments by those who knew him, both positive and negative, did nothing but re-enforce my leaning towards his innocence, but not directly knowing the man I can not be certain either way.

My wish is only that healing will follow for all the parties involved.

A note on comments: I considered not allowing them on this post, but decided that I would. I will, however, delete any comments I deem inappropriate. This includes hearsay. I have no more reason to believe you are telling the truth than anyone else.

No comments identifying the juvenile complainant will be posted.

I think we should stop teaching chemistry too.

2009-05-18T15:18:00.004-04:00

I just read this post (We're Back: On Erhman, CNN and the Middle East) at www.PrimeTimeJesus.com. Apparently Bart Ehrman is emboldening terrorists. It reminds me of how the Bush administration accused those of us who were opposed to the war in Iraq of emboldening terrorists. Whether or not one agrees with Ehrman's work, to suggest that he should stop publishing his studies because some extremists are being encouraged is ridiculous. Extremists use the Bible too, should we stop publishing it?

An encounter at BJ's Wholesale Club

2009-04-17T18:10:00.007-04:00

So, let me first tell you that until today I had a bumper sticker on my car that read "If Religious Groups Want To Get Into Politics, They Should Pay Taxes". Ironically, I decided today, while in BJ's, that I no longer wanted to express myself through bumper stickers since they seldom initiate any real dialogue.

As I returned to my car, put my groceries in, and began to remove my two bumper stickers, an angry pastor and his wife approached me. He angrily asked me why I displayed that bumper sticker and I told him it was because I don't like religious organizations getting into politics and trying to legislate their own brand of morality and that it was illegal for churches to endorse politicians and keep their tax exempt status. His wife chimed in with something like "If you were down on your luck, the church would be the first one to give you water." They both then proceeded to tell me how churches were the first to respond to Katrina and all the good churches do. I agreed that churches did a lot of good. They just couldn't understand that I didn't have a problem with churches. It's like they thought my bumper sticker said "Tax churches" because the next thing they talked about was how if churches were taxed then they couldn't do all the good they do now. My response was "But if churches were taxed and didn't have as much money, God would provide right?" They said yes he would.

They said something about how I would feel differently if I knew the Bible, at which point I explained that I had been a Christian for 20 years. He asked why I wasn't now and I briefly explained that in seeking a fuller relationship with God he gradually became less real to me. His wife asked me if I had a Bible and a Strong's concordance and I said yes. She then asked me to look up the word "love" in the concordance and read all the verses about love, and then she said something about having and older edition Webster's dictionary to look stuff up in. I was tempted to explain to her that I knew the new testament was written in Greek and that the Greeks had four words for love, etc. etc., but decided not to as I really wasn't interested.

We ended with him asking what my first name was so he could pray for me; I've always wondered why we needed names to pray for people. I thanked him, told them it was nice to meet them, and was on my way.

Why do some believers seem to be so challenged and almost intimidated by those who used to share their faith?

You are all wrong, fortunately, I'm right.

2009-04-14T19:19:00.004-04:00

Today's post, the first in quite a while, is about schoolyard bullies who have grown up and become TV or radio personalities. You know the ones I'm talking about, the ones who see the world in black and white, and only their side is the good side. The ones who don't actually deal with real issues, but instead toss around labels that do nothing, but make extremists be more extreme, polarizing this great nation of ours. I become nearly physically ill when I hear some of these disgusting hypocrites speak. During the last administration those of us who were less than thrilled with President Bush were un-American and were told we hated America, now these same people are criticizing our current president, hell it's not even valid criticism, it's just bullying, but they consider themselves patriots and still say the rest of us are un-American.

Why do people listen to these mental midgets?

A Year Without God

2009-03-01T11:18:00.000-05:00

February 29th, 2008 was the day I sent out my letter to my friends and family declaring my new found lack of belief. Of course, there is no 29th this year, so March 1st will have to do. ;-)

It has been one of the most interesting years of my life. I've had regular theological discussions for most of my adult life, but never with such variety, and certainly never from this side of the fence.

One of the things I've tried to do is not make assumptions about what people believe. The labels we give ourselves and each other are so very inadequate at expressing what we really believe. There is so much variety of belief, even within each of the nearly infinite denominations within Christianity, that pigeonholing is not advisable. It's easy to label someone a fundy or a new ager and essentially write them off. It's much more interesting, challenging, and sometimes exhausting to try to dig deeper and see what they really believe and why.

I have constantly run into the certainty brick wall. We are all certain of many things, but I refuse to be certain about the invisible. The problem with many of the God arguments that are made, is that they depend on experiences. I'm glad that you are happy and that you've had experiences you identify as God, but that does not mean I will have those same experiences or even if I do, choose to identify them as God. I try to be kind, but there are times where something appears so ludicrous to me that I laugh. Really, none of us is perfect, we could all be wrong.

It's been a good year, no disasters have befallen me, no local floods or fires, God hasn't tried to smite me yet. Of course the year hasn't been perfect, I experienced the same sorts of events that happened when I was a professing Christian. Work related stress from time to time, family medical issues, etc, etc. Then again, a big book I once read said something like "The rain falls on the wicked and the just.".

Let's see how the next year goes.

This was crossposted at atheistsandchristians.com and merelyadequate.net

How do you, or did you experience God?

2009-03-01T10:23:00.001-05:00

Today's question is "How do you, or did you experience God?"

In my discussions with theists, I've been accused of false conversion many times. I was essentially doing it wrong, and they, of course, could tell me the correct way. However, other theists have been much more kind and understanding and realize that I must experience God in my own way...if a god exists.

I will now attempt to explain the ways in which I felt I was experiencing God.

The little things: Thoughts, feelings, bits of scripture popping into my head or jumping off the page at me.

The big things: Feelings of purpose, belonging, being loved, cared for, protected, and guided. Feeling God move at gatherings, especially during worship. Being given the right things to say in the right time. Prayer, nearly without ceasing. Blessing others with prayer, both one on one and during small group gatherings.

Even though I never felt God spoke to me in direct words, I felt that he was in constant communication through thoughts and feelings. I did my best to always keep him in my thoughts. I had bibles everywhere and made special CDs of music and scripture. I found one the other day. I called them Songs That Keep Me Strong, and had several consisting of quite a few songs.

Please share with me how you experience or experienced God. Please do not try to use this as an opportunity to tell me what you feel I did wrong.

Poets, priests, and politicians.

2009-01-18T21:17:00.000-05:00

I've been reading a lot of different arguments on various Christian web sites, arguments in favor of Christianity or against atheism. The conclusion I've come to is that while these arguments are sometimes fascinating and incredibly complex, they are about as useful as tits on a bull. Please, don't think me unkind, but you can argue till you are blue in the face, but if I don't have a real experience with your brand of spirituality then your arguments are merely interesting at best.

When I was a Christian I delved into the realm of apologetics quite a bit. One of my favorite verses was:

2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (New International Version)

4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Now I see such actions as futile and masturbatory, preaching to the choir quite literally.

I guess the point of this post is to let you know not to get all upset when atheists don't find your arguments compelling or don't decide to delve deeper into your beliefs. I know you feel your arguments are compelling and that everyone should find them convincing, but not everyone will, not even all of your fellow theists.

The title of this post came from here.

CD Review - Benjamin Payne - The Way of Truth

2008-12-17T19:11:00.004-05:00

Ok, I know, I know. I'm an atheist ex-Christian and I'm reviewing a Christian worship album. Crazy I know, but it's also really good music. I listen to all sorts of music, with all sorts of messages.

This CD is a wonderful combination of great musicianship, terrific song writing, wonderful vocals, and oh yeah, lots of hand raising, foot stomping worship music! There's something for everyone on this CD. Fast, slow, loud, soft, it's all here. The arrangements are lush and really put one into a contemplative mood. Benjamin has been one of my best friends for many years, so you might think I'm biased, but ask any of my friends if I'm afraid to criticize their music. I'm not. One thing about Benjamin, he means every word on this CD. He completely gives his all to God, and this CD shares a little bit of that dedication with all of us, even those of us that don't share Benjamin's faith.

Benjamin Payne - The Way of Truth
It can also be found here: www.digstation.com

I posted this review at cdbaby.com, digstation.com, merelyadequate.net, and atheistsandchristians.com

Comments

2008-11-27T18:28:00.003-05:00

Some anonymous coward made a comment on the Dan Silverman thread and I removed it. If you are going to make an accusation at least have the stones to use a screen name.

I will delete any comments that I feel do not add to the conversation.

The plight of Dan Silverman

2008-11-18T14:33:00.005-05:00

Dan Silverman is a fellow ex-Christian and member of ex-Christian.net. Below is his story. It may seem almost unreal to you, but it is not the first of it's kind that I have read or heard. This is one of those times where religion, love it or hate it, has gone wrong.

Getting the Story Out

In recent days it has become imperative that I get out my story. Over the next days I will endeavor to do just that. My story is not important because I am important. Many who may visit this blog may not even know who I am. My story is important because of the circumstances that brought me to this point in my life. We live in a country where freedom is (or was) valued above all things. Our freedom, and the freedom of others, is an ideal that drives what we do as a nation. However, there are segments within our society that would desire to reduce or even eliminate our freedoms. What has shocked and surprised me is the people and organizations that are influential in attempting to do away with them.

I believe that by telling my story I may be able to help some people to see more clearly and, as a result, experience true freedom. The most important ... that which no man should have the right to take away from you ... is the freedom to think.

Please stay tuned for my story.

Don't Ever Stop Thinking!

What is my story and why would anyone want to know it? I believe that my story, my life, is important, not because of who I am, but because of what has been going on in my life over the past several months. Imagine, if you will, finding your friends and family turning away from you because of a simple decision that was made. Imagine that this decision was not to commit some evil crime, but simply to start thinking for one's own self. Imagine that as you begin to explore your newfound freedom of thought, you find yourself being arrested. And why? Because those that had once loved you feared the decision you had made and wanted to take away your liberty.

My story is about freedom for all by advocating the right for each man and woman to think for their own selves. As I put together the pieces of my story please understand that what I will reveal here is true. I will not pull any punches as I tell it. I will try my best not to tear down others and so I may speak of a person by title and not by name. My goal is not to slander another individual. My agenda is simple: to get the truth out about my story. My hope is that like-minded people will see what is happening to me and others like me and will decide to no longer stand quietly by as our freedoms are being eroded away. What may surprise you about my story is that something like this is happening in 21st century America. What may also be surprising is that the yoke of oppression is being place upon people by those with a message of love, hope and freedom. Instead, they bring fear and bondage.

However, as human beings with great minds, we can think for our own selves. We can reason. We can explore. And we can come to conclusions. It is our minds, and what we do with them, that separate us from the rest of life on this planet. It is our ability to reason, to think and to be creative that makes us special. When someone attempts to take away our reason and to shunt our creativity, then we are diminished and brought closer to the animal and further from our potential as human beings. Don't let others think for you. As you read my story, I hope that you will draw courage to think for your own selves. Because, no matter how bad my story is or how terrible it could get, I would trade it for nothing. For, you see, my mind is now free. I can think again. And for that I am quite grateful.

The Beginning of My Story

My story, like anyone else's, begins at my birth. I was born into a typical American family. My father is Jewish and my mother was not. Neither were religious. And, as a result, I was not raised within the confines of any particular religion. I grew up not giving it much thought. At the age of 21 I joined the Marine Corps and, in 1990, was sent to Saudi Arabia to help liberate Kuwait during Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm. It was during this time that I began to see some men turn to God.

After returning to the States in 1991, I began my own personal quest. I wanted to know if God was real. I first went to my battalion chaplain, who was a Roman Catholic. When he found out I was from Jewish decent (with a name like Silverman, who would have thought that?) he sent me to the base rabbi. However, this rabbi spoke of God like some impersonal force that was out there ... a force that could be tapped into for either good or bad. This did not sit well with me.

Along the way of my quest, I met some people that were a part of a Bible believing church. I was told that I needed to be born again. Eventually, I came to the place where I said a sinner's prayer and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. From that point on my life was forever changed.

When I was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps, I relocated to Winston-Salem, North Carolina and began to attend Piedmont Bible College (now called Piedmont Baptist College). My goal was to train to be a pastor. During a mission's conference at the school I came believe that God was calling me to be a missionary, but I did not know where He wanted me to serve. It was at this time that I met the young woman that would soon become my wife. She told me about going to Israel as a missionary. I believed that I had my answer from God and began to focus on the land of Israel.

We married and began to pursue moving to Israel. It was not easy and many years went by. In the process, four wonderful children were born. We were determined to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Along the way, I had served as an interim pastor at one church and an elder at another. When the timing seemed right and the finances were there, we moved our family to Israel, where we stayed for the next four-and-a-half years of our lives.

In Israel we served at a local assembly in Jerusalem for three-and-a-half years and then moved to start a new work in the northern part of Israel above the Sea of Galilee. After a year there we saw the need to return to the USA in order to help take care of my wife's mother, who was aging and failing in health. I also wanted to continue my education and pursue my Masters degree.

I write all this so that you can know a bit about my life. During this phase, I was dedicated to serving the Lord. I had taught in many churches and have taught the Bible in places such as the United States, Israel and Mexico. It was the Lord and His Word, the Bible, that guided all that I did, all that I thought and by which we, as a family, tried to conform our lives. I was what some would call a Bible Thumper. I believed in the strict, literal interpretation of the Bible. To me, doctrine, hermeneutics and exegetical teaching were everything. But along the journey, there were some things that did not sit well with me. I logged them into the back of my mind and continued on my way until one day I was forced to confront them.

My story is about confronting those thoughts and what happened as a result.

The Turning Point ...

After returning to the United States we began to attend Heritage Baptist Church in Vinton, Virginia. We thought we had found our dream church. The congregation was warm and loving. The church's methodology was to keep families together. In most churches we had experience with, children went to a children's Sunday School and then to Children's Church during the normal church service. At Heritage, there was no segregation of the family. Children stayed with their parents throughout the service, sitting by their families sides and listening to the same preaching and teaching as mommy and daddy. The children in this church environment seemed to act very mature. Their attention seemed to be on heavenly things. After some time of attending there I became a leader of teachers for a part of the service called Family School (or version of Sunday School, but for the entire family) and then later was accepted as a pastor of the church alongside the founding pastor, Bob Barton.

During this time I was a busy man. Finances were tight and besides the ministry, I was doing computer graphic work on the side to try to make ends meet. I was also teaching in other churches. A typical schedule for me would include helping on Sunday morning (if I was not scheduled to preach), teaching a class such as a New Testament Survey on Monday nights, teaching classes on Wednesdays, such as Messianic Prophecies or a course I had developed called the Biblical Perspective of Israel. Besides ministry and work, we homeschooled our kids and I had a part in that as well. Needless to say, I was working most of my waking hours. Most nights I was not getting very much sleep.

As time went on and my schedule became more hectic some of the thoughts I had tossed into the back of my head began to surface. These thoughts contained doubts about what I was doing. Some were doubts about what I was teaching. In most cases I cast these thoughts aside. Christianity had taught me that thoughts like these were either a part of my own sinful nature or an attack from the devil, God's ancient enemy. How could I even trust my own thoughts? After all, the Bible was clear that the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (according to Jeremiah 17:9). It became even more imperative to pray and to give myself to Christ ... to die to self and to live unto God.

But my prayers seemed to go unheeded. In fact, I began to notice things that really caught my attention. My wife is an extremely religious woman. She believes the Bible to be literally true and would spend the first hour of her day reading the Scriptures. The next hour was devoted to prayer. A large portion of our prayer was for our children. Over the years we saw quite a rebellious spirit arise in each of our kids. We had desired that they would become godly offspring, willing to sacrifice their own lives for the cause of Christ. As they rebelled and seemed dead set on pursuing their own ways, we pleaded with them, we educated them in the ways of Christ, we chastened them when necessary and, above all things, we prayed for them. However, it seemed that prayer was not effective. No matter how many hours my godly wife prayed, no matter how many times either of us hit our knees, our children did not change. We began to doubt their salvation. I began to doubt God.

The Bible declares that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (Second Peter 3:9). The Bible declares that God died for all (John 3:16). The Bible declares over and over again God's desire for a godly seed and for a holy people to follow him. The Bible told us that if we prayed anything in accordance with His will, he would grant it (First John 5:14, John 14:13; 15:16; 16:23). We prayed according to the clear will of God as revealed in the Scriptures and, despite that, things only grew worse in our family. My doubts began to raise their ugly heads again.

And Now, the Rest of the Story ...

I was a man on a quest again. I had to learn the truth. There should be no fear in looking for answers. Even the Bible said ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32). Freedom was to be found in the truth and I desperately wanted that.

Over the past several years, as I served Christ, I felt more and more restricted, more and more bound. I found myself sleeping less and wanting to get out of what I was doing. I was not content, but felt more like a trapped animal. All this time I thought it was my own sinful nature rearing its head and I did not realize it was my mind calling out for me to be rational ... to think again. I suppressed my thoughts, but that only made things worse. But then I realized, I should not be afraid of the truth. If God is who He says He is, then I will discover this and the end result is that I will know Him better and be able to serve Him more. However, if He is not who He says He is, then I need to stop living a lie and move on with my life!

Many doubts began to arise in me and I wanted to seek the answers of other like-minded Baptists. I did not want to talk to the other pastor I served with. I wanted to do this anonymously. I found a Baptist forum on the Internet and posted a brief of my history and some of my doubts. What occurred surprised me. I was attacked! Some of the members simply assumed I was an atheist come to attempt to change their ways. I found no love and no help. Even so, I continued to try to ask questions about the things I was struggling with. Instead of rational answers, they simply threw more Bible verses at me, verses that did not answer the questions. Others simply told me that they would pray for me.

I decided to try something different. I found a web site for those that had left the faith (www.exchristian.net). I shared the same story and my questions. To my surprise, I found a loving group of people who were willing to help me find answers. I was amazed. I had been taught that atheists were cruel and amoral people that had no structure to guide them. I found that notion to be utterly false. As I began to research my doubts and look at the Bible with a new set eyes, I came to the conclusion that I had been living a lie and that I needed to leave the ministry. This was a life-changing decision, but I did not realize how it would change everything around me.

When I felt I could, I approached and told my wife of my new decision. The next day I told Pastor Barton and I stepped down from the ministry. I was a mix of emotions. On the one hand, I was free! I could think again. I could dream! It was the most liberating experience I can ever recall! On the other hand, I knew that my decision would break my wife's heart and would cause a multitude of problems for Heritage Baptist Church and Pastor Barton in particular. Even so, I could not live a lie. I had to live as I believed. When I believed in Christ, I lived accordingly. When I ceased believing in Christ, I lived accordingly.

My pastor's reaction surprised me. Instead of showing the Christian love that he had preached, he began to blame me for a multitude of problems that would occur as a result of my sudden decision. My wife's reaction was even more surprising. She took me aside to tell me that she was praying for me. She then said these words, "I am praying two things for you: that you will either get right with God or that He will take you out!"

I asked, "Are you praying for my death?"

She replied, "God's honor is worth more than anything."

I was shocked. Here was the woman I was married to for 15 years praying that God would kill me. I didn't know what to say. But things did not get better for me, but worse. The next day my oldest son came to me and said, "Mom says you are an anti-Christ and under a delusion."

She had had a Bible study with the children and wanted to warn them about their father. During my coming out of the faith, I did not attempt to stop my wife from having Bible studies with the children and I did not try to keep them from going to church. But my wife was working hard to keep the children from me. She made it clear to me on several occasions that she did not want my children with me.

Then meetings began to be arranged with my wife and the pastor. I was never told what the phone calls were about. I did not ask. After all, I trusted my wife. I thought, despite her prayer for my death, that she loved me. I did not know what was being planned.

On Saturday evening, one of my children came to me and told me that their mother was trying to find a place for each of them to spend the night on Sunday. She said she just wanted them to be able to spend some time with some of their friends from church. On Sunday my two daughters decided that they would go, but my two sons stayed. On Monday morning, I woke up to find my wife gone. The house was pretty empty except for me and my sons. I went to work. At about 12:30 that afternoon there was a knock on the door. I answered it to find two women detectives standing there asking for me to step outside. I did. They then showed me a warrant for my arrest! I was being charged with aggravated sexual assault on a child who was less than 13! I was dumbfounded as they hauled me off to jail.

I was placed in jail without bond. The next day the Pastor Barton came to visit me. He pointed a finger at me and said, "See where leaving God has gotten you!" I was crushed. I spent the next 50+ days in jail before I was finally allowed to get out on bond. I am now facing several months of court dates in an attempt to prove that I did not do that for which I am accused. My wife had placed a protective order against me and for the last two months I have not heard nor have I seen my children. I am not permitted, by law, to see them.

Did I commit the crime? No. I left the faith. I walked away from the ministry and made a decision to follow what I truly believe. Frankly, this crushed my wife. Her dreams of one day returning to Israel were dashed. Her dreams of being married to a dynamic preacher of God's word were over. And so she cast me away. The pastor of Heritage Baptist Church was upset as well. I believe he wanted to humble me in an attempt to bring me back to the faith and to the church. My wife had met with Pastor Barton and, via the phone, another minister. They recommended the solution to her: get the authorities involved. They did.

I have so far learned a lot from my experiences. The church's message of love only extends to those that embrace the church. Leave her and experience her wrath. I also learned that innocent until proven guilty is not a part of our country any longer. According to much of what I have read, people who are falsely accused of molesting or abusing a child are likely to be convicted of the crime, even if there is no evidence. According to one web site, mothers who bring the accusation are much more likely to be believed even in the face of the evidence. All it takes is an unfounded accusation to potentially have your life taken away.

This is my story. I decided, of my own free will, to leave the faith. Those who were once my friends, and even my dearest love, chose to cast me to the wolves instead of continue to love me as I am. As a result, I have decided to take a stand for freedom! I have decided to speak out for our fundamental right to think for our own selves and to not be persecuted for thinking contrary to those that are around you. Our thoughts make up who we are. No one has the right to try to force us to think according to their ways. Our minds are wonderful things, capable of reason, discovery and creativity. No one should seek to destroy your life because you dare to think!

I'd just like to say how thankful I am that none of my loved ones have turned on me the way that Dan's have. It sickens me to see those proclaiming to preach Christ's word with love do these sorts of things. I hope that my post will help Dan in his fight to reclaim his good name and a good relationship with his loved ones.

Scientific American - The Certainty Bias: A Potentially Dangerous Mental Flaw

2008-10-09T15:19:00.003-04:00

Dad sent me this article and I found it very interesting, especially in light of my most recent post.

The Certainty Bias: A Potentially Dangerous Mental Flaw

Robert Burton is the former chief of neurology at the University of California at San Francisco-Mt. Zion hospital. He recently wrote a book, On Being Certain, that explored the neuroscience behind the feeling of certainty, or why we are so convinced we’re right even when we’re wrong. He and Jonah Lehrer, the editor of Mind Matters, discussed the science of certainty.

via http://www.sciam.com

Weary

2008-10-04T12:19:00.004-04:00

I am growing weary, no, not physically, but mentally. As enjoyable as it can be to discuss the possibilities of the spiritual realm, I always end up running into that immovable brick wall that is the theists firm belief in their chosen deity. I don't say that as a bad thing, it's just that I know what it's like to believe in God, and now I know what it's like not to believe in God. When I was a Christian I found it impossible that some people didn't believe in God. Now I see the other side, and find myself trying to explain how I could go from one extreme to another.

There was never a time before this year that I did not believe in God. From my earliest childhood memory I believed that God was there, loving and protecting his children. I could write a long description of how my belief waned and eventually got snuffed out, but that would only be a challenge to some believer to come along and tell me I was doing it wrong and that is one of the things I have grown weary of.

I don't write with the goal of making you lose your faith. I may attempt to challenge some of your ideas, especially if they could lead to dangerous things, but if your faith makes you happy and you are not a negative influence on society I don't care what you believe in. I just hope that you would care what you believe in.

Having been a conservative Christian for many years (Yes, I know, I was a false convert, blah, blah, blah.) I know how difficult, nay, impossible it is to comprehend a world without God. I know all the rationalizations that are made to hold onto the One True Faith™ you believe in. Yes, I know your faith is the best and most logical of them all. Of course, so are all the others. It all depends on which believer you talk to. You can't all be right, but most certainly you could all be wrong and so could I.

So I end up preaching, along with Bill Maher, the Gospel of I Don't Know. Try it, you may like it. I think you will find it refreshing and a heck of a lot more honest than the Gospel of I Know For Certain and You Don't.

I'll never forget weeping in front of the TV this day seven years ago

2008-09-11T04:43:00.000-04:00

I'll never forget weeping in front of the TV this day seven years ago. I awoke to find a message on my answering machine from my friend Bill. I turned on the TV and just stood there, mouth open, and then the tears came. I was glued to the TV that day. That evening I went to my friends Benjamin and Kimberly's house to pray with them.

Extreme, fanatical, fundamentalist belief in their version of a god led those men to commit those deeds that day. Was John Lennon right? Would it have been different if those men hadn't been religious fanatics? What if there were no countries or possessions? Would they have found another reason to attack? We'll never know. All we can do is live our lives and try to be a positive influence in the world. We need to educate people, but how does one educate religious fanatics? How does one educate people that refuse to listen? How does one speak to a group so extreme that they see human life as worth no more than bricks and mortar used to wall themselves off from the world?

I don't know, but I will never forget that day.

"There's no such thing as a winnable war."

2008-09-07T16:33:00.000-04:00

No, I'm not writing about the war in Iraq, rather I am writing about the war between some atheists and some Christians. I don't think this war will end, but I do know that there are atheists, Christians, and other theists who are willing to dialogue without coming to blows. One may wonder what the point of this dialogue would be and sometimes I wonder that myself. I guess my answer would be that the point is to understand ourselves better and the universe we live in.

TinyThinker wrote recently that "...we miss a great deal of what is going on in the world because our reality is tightly bound up in our expectations." I think this is part of what leads to these great battles between worldviews. We are so caught up in, so convinced of, what we hold to be true, that there is no room for us to allow ourselves the possibility of being wrong, even just a little bit.

Calling myself an atheist gained me a lot of baggage that I didn't earn. Many people I've spoken with make all sorts of assumptions about what I believe based simply on my lack of belief in a god. Now, certain phrases I hear from Christians will lead me to make certain assumptions about what they believe, and I'll admit this isn't fair. I knew I couldn't pigeonhole all Christians and yet folks like J.L. Hinman made me realize that even more. I found it quite easy to argue against and dismiss unbending fundamentalist Christians, but once I began to discuss with Christians with more open minds it wasn't quite as easy. Perhaps this was due to my familiarity with fundamentalist Christianity, but I think it more likely that it was due to the fact that the liberal Christians were more flexible and accepting and willing to concede on certain issues, in fact not even seeing them as obstructions to their faith at all.

I think if a god exists he is greater than anything we could imagine, and could transcend all of our actions, and I, honestly, keeping an open mind, can not easily dismiss such a possibility.

I do find it satisfying, but also frustrating at times that many arguments for theism drive me even deeper into my atheism. My pride wants me to dig down and hold onto my atheism, but the rest of me really is seeking truth wherever that may lead. I'm still an atheist with an agnostic leanings, but I do not know where I will end up. Who does?

Christians are not stupid

2008-08-15T19:33:00.000-04:00

Christians and other theists are not stupid. How do I know this? I've known some incredibly brilliant people, called many of them friends, who are Christians or some other sort of theist, plus I used to be one. Too many atheists I've read, at least on the internet, write Christians off and attack them as morons. Don't get me wrong, there are many who claim to follow Christ who are complete idiots, but there are plenty who wave the banner of atheist that are dumb as a box of rocks as well.

Yes, I'm an atheist ex-Christian, but that does not mean I have lost respect for Christians. There are some who claim Christ, who are such hateful idiots that not even most Christians claim them. The vast majority of Christians I know are people who live normal lives and do their best to show the love of Christ to everyone they meet.

Got a problem with a belief system? That's fine, but don't belittle yourself and hurt your argument by using ad hominem attacks against those you argue against. You're smarter than that, aren't you?

Atheists and Christians Community Blog has been added to The Atheist Blogroll

2008-08-04T02:11:00.000-04:00

Atheists and Christians Community Blog has been added to The Atheist Blogroll. You can see the blogroll in my sidebar. The Atheist blogroll is a community building service provided free of charge to Atheist bloggers from around the world. If you would like to join, visit Mojoey at Deep Thoughts for more information.

Considering another tattoo

2008-08-04T02:04:00.001-04:00

It started with this idea:

Clearer?

Do Liberal Christians Deconvert?

2008-07-31T19:47:00.000-04:00

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. It seems to me that quite a few of the folks who deconvert from Christianity come from conservative, biblical literalist traditions. Now, when I was a part of those traditions I was disgusted by liberal Christians, I saw them as apathetic and lukewarm or worse. What I find now is that liberal Christians can be just as passionate as the fundamentalist Christians, but in a life affirming, positive way. It seems this escape from a legalistic view of scripture can lead to a vibrant and enduring faith. Before I deconverted I was much more liberal in my approach to scripture and yet for me it was the lack of God's presence that really drew me away. Fundamentalists would say it was my liberalism that drove God away, but I know of many Christians who hold these same liberal views and experience what they would call God's presence daily. I'm very content with my life as it is, and yet I always thirst for knowledge. If a god exists in some form, I am open to experiencing that, but for now I will just live my life and try to shed a little light wherever I go.

Peace, Love and Coexistence.

Invisible Friends

2008-07-24T14:13:00.000-04:00

Ok, I know the subject sounds like I'm going to start ranting about how theists are so stupid for having invisible friends, but I'm not. In fact this post is pretty much the opposite. It frustrates me when atheists arguing with Christians resort to such tactics. It only serves to anger their opponent and the conversation quickly degenerates into something useless to both sides.

You can respect someones right to believe something without respecting that belief. Even if I think your belief in talking acorns makes you completely loopy I will still talk about your belief with respect. I'm sure I will express incredible disbelief, but I'm not going to call you names.

I know a lot of anger exists out there with atheists angry at Christians and vice versa. In many instances there are good reasons for this anger, but anger only hurts you. We can agree to disagree because when it comes down to it we each think the other side is a slave to their cognitive dissonance.

Maybe the purpose of this site is futile. Maybe atheists and Christians will never get along, but I like to think it's at least possible.

Protected Intolerance

2008-07-21T08:55:00.000-04:00

This pretty much speaks for it's self.

From Cectic.com

I never wanted to be an Atheist.

2008-07-17T23:07:00.000-04:00

Since de-converting from Christianity many who claim to follow Christ have accused me of wanting to lead a life of sin or wanting to hide from God, or just plain turning my back on God. I had one Christian named Dan, after I said the sentence that is the title of this post, tell me "Then you shouldn't be, shame on you. It's called faith for a reason. Sure God could reveal himself to us quite easily but he wants us to have faith in Him and Trust Him not just believe and not to be tempted."

It's odd to me that I do not attack their character and yet they attack mine, that somehow does not seem very Christian to me. I have some wonderful Christian friends and family. I have also made new Christian friends who I have met through various web sites.

I began this post yesterday and am continuing it today. Today I asked Dan a simple question. "Do you think I'm telling the truth when I say I don't believe God exists" his response: "In a word...No." I've given Dan no reason to call me a liar so I told him so and then unsubscribed from his blogs and comments from his blog.

I don't call Christians liars for believing in God, yet some of them are so sure of their belief that they would call unbelievers liars for saying they don't believe in the Christian God. I guess I understand this because I felt the same way when I was a Christian, though I never accused anyone of lying. I felt they had fooled themselves, not that they were flat out lying.

I understand this anger against atheists, I was pissed off when atheists attacked Jesus too, when I was a Christian, but I was pissed off at individuals not all atheists. Even then I knew that not all atheists made their business attacking Christ.

I loved being a Christian, I didn't have any negative experiences, I just began to look at other things in the world, and wondering how if so many others believed so sincerely then how could I think their sincerity was somehow less than mine? I began to really look for evidence of God in my life, I began to really listen to see if I was truly hearing God's voice or if it was just my own. To this day I still pray from time to time: "God, if you are real, please let me know."

I never wanted to be an atheist. I just had to be honest about no longer believing.

Why can't we all just get along?

2008-07-12T11:07:00.000-04:00

OK, the title of this post is sort of tongue in cheek, but it's a serious question. Early this year I deconverted from Christianity for reasons I've gone into in other places, but will not address in this post. Since then I've had some terrific discussions with people from all sorts of different faith viewpoints and I've been troubled by the anger and hatred in some of these discussions.

I fully understand how frustrating it is when someone on either side says they are 100% correct. I also understand that there are trolls on both sides and sometimes it's hard not to respond to them and feed them.

I just set up this blog and bought the domain name atheists-and-christians.com, which currently redirects here, because I want to create a place where atheists and theists, not just Christians, can discuss their ideas and actually try to understand each others viewpoint and perhaps (gasp!) actually get along!

I'm investigating some forum software and we'll see where this goes. Maybe nowhere, perhaps it's an exercise in futility.

I may also seek other contributors to this blog if they are of like mind in regards to the goals of this site, Atheists, Christians or people of any religious or nonreligious persuasion would be welcome.